Fuel Pumps = Too many choices

[hozer]

So I gotta upgrade my fuel pump. The more I read the more confused I become. Like 800 different choices, nismo, tomei, bosch external pumps mounted internal... What on earth do I purchase?

I like the idea of the Bosch 044 because its like 1/2 the cost of the other pumps and is just as good if not better but its "external" and ive read countless things saying that it still can be used internal?

Please help...

[RABBIT]

so u want an internal pump?
how many lph do u want it to pump?
safest bet generally is nismo or walbro since a large amount of people run those .

[hozer]

Internal pump for power goals NO MORE than 600WHP on 800cc injectors

[RABBIT]

injector size?

[hozer]

800cc

[mcfly]

Apexi, allan will be able to help a lot on this subject though as he went through it. Either way the Apexi pump has been known to do just this. 600 hp.

[hozer]

Apexi, allan will be able to help a lot on this subject though as he went through it. Either way the Apexi pump has been known to do just this. 600 hp.

Ok Ill have to see what he says.

[Allan74]

Sorry.....missed this thread. Just checking in.

Where are we on the subject ?

[Allan74]

Anyways, before we go any ferther, I wanna get 1 thing clear.

A Walbro is a great pump for RB20 Guys that are looking to upgrade.

A Walbro is a sub-standard pump for an RB26 application running anymore than 8 PSI of boost.

So people, when you suggest Walbro, make sure you are telling people the PROPER information.

Now back to the task at hand.......

For the record, ANYTHING I TALK ABOUT ON THIS FORUM (UNLESS OTHERWISE STATED) IS PURELY RB26DETT RELATED. So, when you see me posting, it's RB26 stuff and nothing but.....I know nothing about RB20/25 and want to keep it that way.

My RB26 IN-TANK Top Picks:
1) Bosch 044 - requires custom work to fit. Highest LPH Rating our of the box @ 300 LPH
2) Denso Supra TT Pump (Denso 195130-1020) as well as Sard 280 LHP, as it's a Denso Pump as well.
3) Tomei, Nismo - both look/perform the same from what I can tell. 276 LPH.
4) ...........that's it, in that order.

From what I understand, the Bosch 044 will work, after some serious fitting work, but most people are not up to the task. It's said to be good for 300 LPH. One user that I know of personally has done nearly 600 WHP on a RB26/T04Z Setup (Manny, Federal in Ontario). Although this pump ends up as #1 on my fav list, it is only there because of it's rating of 300+ LPH. I am not planning on using it myself.

The Denso pumps are a great choice (my personal favorites) , but special attention MUST be given to wiring, as they are ALL CURRENT HUNGRY (20 amps at 70 PSI Line Pressure, 14V) and need upgraded wiring to work properly. The Denso pumps also like extra Voltage, so are a great choice when using something like a Kenne Bell Boost-A-Pump (Voltage Stabilizer & Pump Voltage Controller). Although they show up on the list at #2, they are actually MY Personal #1 choice, because of the KB BAP. These pumps are so popular that even the Corvette guys are using them and you only need to check out a Supra Forum to be further impressed. Denso pumps are some of the most affordable, for the performance you get (not as cheap as Walbro) and usually in the sub-$250 USD price range, unless it's an HKS ($500+) or Sard ($400) branded pump.

The Tomei and Nismo are great for those that don't want any hassles and are not looking for anything spectacular in terms of performance. They just work. A safe 500 WHP, no messing around, although they are rated for 550 max.

Where is the Apexi BNR32 pump ? why did it not make the list ? SIMPLE. It's not available anymore (in it's past glory anyways) and the BCNR33 Apexi Pump is NOTHING LIKE it's freak of nature BNR32 older brother. It's just not worth buying anymore. I spoke to Apexi personally and they assured me that all old stock had been depleated and there was no plan to re-visit the old pump design, although it was nothing more than a re-wired/re-geared Nismo Pump (their exact words). The BCNR33 Pump is available though, but does not even come close to comparing, performance-wise.

Want to support 600+WHP on a single in tank pump ?

Denso Pump + Kenne Bell Boost-A-Pump = enough SAFELY to literally DROWN a set of 800cc injectors, even at 20+ PSI of Boost (63+ PSI Line Pressures). Stay under 70 PSI line Prssure (under 27 PSI of Boost). I will be running this type of setup for my own application and will upgrade both fuel feed line (8AN) and all wiring when installing my Kenne Bell BAP, just to be safe and provide a little extra headroom. Being a single pump setup, it will still trigger shutdowns etc and all built in safety measures in case of pump failure and I will not have to risk a lean condition that could blow my motor, say, if I were to run twin pumps.

Twin In-Tank Pumps ?

I would never do it, so I will not write or comment in great length about it.
It's unsafe and a bandaid at best. Hot Fuel, Risk of Single pump failure/lean condition......enough said.


Here is some great reading, to backup what I have said above:

http://www.roadraceengineering.com/fuelpumpflowrates.htm

http://www.stealth316.com/2-fuelpumpguide.htm

Enjoy !

[hozer]

Kudos man MUCH appreciated!

[Zacho]

I have a walbro and a bosch 044 and not sure what I am going to run just yet. The bosch 044 you can quite easily get ahold of the sock for it to run in the tank.

Allan - I know walbros like to burn out when you run them with low fuel in the tank; but in your eyes what do you not like about them? Pressure drop?

[Allan74]

but in your eyes what do you not like about them? Pressure drop?

BINGO !

I was educated by Mcfly, then pointed in the direction of all the tests to finish my 'learnin'.....

I was almost serious about the Walbro being good for 8PSI. Well, that's pretty much what it boils down to. They do not like increased Line Pressure and simply can not overcome big(ger) boost applications in some scenarios.

As line pressure increases you can see how they really start to fall off in terms of performance/volume etc.....alot steeper a slope than other pumps.

http://www.stealth316.com/images/flowtest-walbro.gif
See here: http://www.stealth316.com/2-fuelpumpguide.htm#j5

For a Normally Aspirated application, they are awesome, cheap and unbeatable value. For forced induction, they just don't cut it.

[Allan74]

I realize this is old data, but check this out......

At 70 PSI Line Pressure, the Walbro is actually WEAKER than an OEM BCNR33 Fuel Pump. SO, not really an upgrade there.......

BUT, at 43-50 PSI Line Pressure, the Walbro is better. So, great for Normal Aspiration, not so great for Forced Induction.

And, remember, this is an example of the best pump(s) Walbro offers (GSS341/GSS342) and is NOT necessarily the same "255 LPH" one that is sold everywhere for $99 that people end up with.

http://www.gtrpwrgtrpwrgtrpwrgtrpwrgtrpwrgtrpwrgtrpwr.com/downloads/pics/fuel.jpg

This pump would do a better job fueling an 'All Motor' 550HP Corvette than it would do on a 450HP Turbo'd RB26.

[mcfly]

and to think, the apexi pump did that with a .3 volt deficit.


I found this though, from 1999!
http://www.theoldone.com/components/fuelpumps/

Endyn Fuel Pump

We have been using the Bosch pump for several years in most of our high performance applications.

The reasons for using this particular pump began when the Walbro / Holley pumps we'd used began to lose pumping pressure, while attempting to provide the necessary fuel output and volume necessary to feed engines with our modified Eaton blowers.

The conventional performance pumps were never intended to supply the high pressures needed for single injector systems. Single injectors of stock or moderate flow capacity are necessary because they will idle within legal limits, and in most systems using Honda ECU's, the flow rates are increased by a regulator to provide the fuel for boosted applications.

We've not seen an injector casualty yet, but the small diameter fuel pumps can't operate in these flow ranges, which are often in the 100 psi range. So the Bosch pump is actually a substitute for a fully programmable ECU and multiple injectors in supercharger systems.

As is evidenced by the photo, the Bosch pump is much larger than the Walbro unit and it's a tight fit in the fuel tank (the pump pictured has been shortened 1"), but it can be installed with the pick-up in the original location. For those who wish, the pump also works very well as an externally mounted unit too.
http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/924/fuelpump.jpg

We've looked for a couple years attempting to find an alternate pump that is more compact and (in tank) friendlier to install, but when the diameter of the armature is reduced any, the performance takes a dive.

The best thing we can say is that unless you're making more than 750 hp, you'll never buy another pump for any reason.

We use it and recommend it for these reasons.

- The Old One 12/99

Pump Dimensions: Diameter 2.45" Length 7.50" (shortened)
Price: $239 stock Bosch, $279 modified by us (shortened to fit in stock location)

http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/5578/bosch10208.jpg

As you can see from these performance figures, this pump is not a tinker-toy, but a serious racing component designed for high performance and long life, whether on the street or race track.

[Zacho]

That is some really great info there...really the results do the deciding for you. However for my application a surge tank/custom setup is not needed. An in-tank pump is the only option.

Thanks guys.

[Allan74]

That is some really great info there...really the results do the deciding for you. However for my application a surge tank/custom setup is not needed. An in-tank pump is the only option.

Thanks guys.


How about a Denso Pump and a Kenne Bell Boost-A-Pump ?

[GTR--J]

Great info Allen! I'm running a single rewired Apexi which is doing a great job 400hp now and 500ish coming up.

[Aaron]

The Apex'i pump was enough for just about 700 crank HP on a 26 with me.

[Zacho]

I'm looking into bosch pumps now. I think an 044 in-tank should be the money.

Anyone have thoughts on say, a walbro 255 in-tank feeding and inline bosch 044? Keep in mind this isn't a 900000whp setup.

[hozer]

I'm looking into bosch pumps now. I think an 044 in-tank should be the money.

Anyone have thoughts on say, a walbro 255 in-tank feeding and inline bosch 044? Keep in mind this isn't a 900000whp setup.

Best way to blow up your engine. Inline pumps are just a huge pain in the ass. One fails and now your running lean which is far worse than no gas at all

[Allan74]

The Apex'i pump was enough for just about 700 crank HP on a 26 with me.

That's unreal. It's a shame that (Apexi) they didn't/don't/can't/won't go back to producing the old spec, cause like I said, the BCNR33 Pump is NOTHING like the Apexi BNR32 pump and is more or less a re-badged Nismo according to them.

[Skym]

Interesting.

Bosch have been in the injection game longer than anyone I know -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Bosch_GmbH


There was an article on wiki saying something about that the Japanese company's that make fuelpumps (I think it was related to Denso fuelpumps) learnt from Bosch. Can't find it again.

Nismo are good fuelpumps, as they come with O ring, etc.

[j-ran]

Nobody has mentioned Weldon yet, they are the only ones to offer a lifetime warranty on all of their pumps. Check out this bad boy:
http://www.weldonracing.com/product/19-6/DB2025-A_%28-12_Inlet_and_-10_Outlet%29.html

[mcfly]

We did not mention Weldon because most people are not ok with a jet fighter fuel pump noise in the back of their car. For the average bloke a magnafuel inline pump would be better then a weldon.

They do make the best electric pumps period. Also offered in 12v std and 16v optional.

[Zacho]

I was going to run the 044 in-tank but I am opting for a Denso MKIV pump. Found one new locally for $190. I think I will run new wiring/relay for this and I should be golden. Since I won't be taking it past about 1.3 bar, I should be golden with a base FP of 42 psi no?

http://www.mkiv.com/techarticles/fuel_pumps_test_2/suprapumptest.gif

[mcfly]

how much power do you plan on making

[Zacho]

I'd be a happy camper with 390-410.

[Allan74]

I am opting for a Denso MKIV pump. Found one new locally for $190. I think I will run new wiring/relay for this and I should be golden.
Good call ;)

[RWDragoon]

My top choice in builds is the Bosch 044 or 040 Pumps

Sard pumps are also very nice, not very noisy

We have had 2 aeromotive A1000 pumps fail, not to mention the NOISE