ECU Pros and Cons Discussion.

[Allan74]

Let's get some info together, that we can sumarize and later add to our FAQ section, in regards to ECU Pro and Cons.

Something like this:

------------------------------------------
Power FC:
Pros: Cheap, Plug N' Play.
Cons: No Knock Maps, Fuel Cut Rev Limiter. Different ECU needed to do MAF or MAP.
------------------------------------------
AEM EMS:
Pros: Plug N' Play, same unit capable of MAF or MAP, Knock Maps.
Cons: Expensive etc.
------------------------------------------
AEM EMS V2:
Pros: Plug N' Play, Updated ROM size.
Cons: Tuner capable of LOCKING MAPs (no user editing)
------------------------------------------
Vipec:
Pros: Same unit can do MAF or MAP, Built-in MAP sensor etc.
Cons: Exclusive tuner licensing
------------------------------------------
HKS F-Con V Pro:
Pros: Used in many high HP cars, tried and true design.
Cons: Exclusive tuner licensing, Expensive.
------------------------------------------

What do you guys think ?

Please add info and other ECUs... and afterwards, I will make a fresh list with all info in the FAQ section as a read-only page for Newb reference once we agree on the info.

[inhumane]

i love the idea, woot

power fc d-jetro vs l-jetro? i havent used either, map is my preference

anybody using maf and like it?

[mcfly]

I ran maf in the past and had no issues with it. works great to about 400 wheel with standard mafs

[DrMango]

Wow I like this idea. I think this will turn into a sticky somewhere!
Are we wanting Nistune on that list or is it just standalones?

Kyle

[Allan74]

Definately. Nistune is welcome......

This is just another attempt to create a better knowledgebase for new guys to refer back to. Every little bit of Info helps.

[inhumane]

please note R33 oem ECU does not work with nistune, we should add that on the cons

[Allan74]

please note R33 oem ECU does not work with nistune, we should add that on the cons
Give more details if you can. RB20, 25, 26 R33 etc. I will add it then.
Allan

[Skym]

Interesting subject.

As far as I know -

Nistune Pro's : Realtime ECU tuning, knock fuelmaps for when using low octane gas, designed to work with factory engine or modified factory engine. ECU maps have been tuned for that engine by Nissan, so little mods to base factory maps are need for basic breathing, turbo mods. Can run a custom portable PC as a dash setup to display speed, rpm, AFM voltage, injector duty cycle, change ECU tune, etc. Can run a 700hp capable Ford Lightning MAF. Stop access to ECU maps via password, etc.

Cons : Limited to MAF sensor, limited to 16 load x 16 rpm fuel, ignition maps. Supposedly due to using a stock ECU, it can't control big injectors for high hp (700hp+) applications (I hear it affects idle stability, etc). Some have found work arounds, which involves flow testing, setting injectors up to flow properly at idle, etc.

About R33, Nistune does work if you use early model 300ZX ECU (1990-1993) with Type 2 Nistune board for Series 1 R33 or late model 300ZX ECU (1994? +) for Series 2 R33 with Type 3 Nistune board. Requires a custom made base image to disable certain features that 300ZX ECU has and modification of ECU plug pinouts (or buy a intercept loom and do the pinout changes on intercept loom). This is becoming a popular mod in Australia for R33.

Nistune for R33 ECU (Type 6 board) is still in it's TBD stage (more complicated than other Nissan ECU's), so will be a while before it's released, if it is going to be released.

[inhumane]

ive heard there wont ever be a board released

on PFC heres a good FAQ link

http://paulr33.skylinesaustralia.com/docs/powerfc-faq/powerfc-faq.htm#61

[DrMango]

good info Skym. thanks. I was to lazy/tired to dig up some info last night but you covered it all lol

Kyle

[Zacho]

I'll add a few things to the vipec as I've discovered a few things, I'm sure I'll find more as I go:

Pros:
Plug and Play
Boost control built in

Cons:
Although it does support "VVT", the Nissan RB25 is not on the list(calling to confirm today).
With the plug and play, you are forced to re-pin some pins on the ECU in order to have proper inputs for the IAT sensor, and wideband input for RB20/25. Not a very big deal though.


EMS V2 with lockable maps...that would suck!

[mcfly]

Cosworth makes ecu's for the needy.

Cons: price(i assume), not plug and play
pros: Cosworth built, Formula 1 car technology

http://www.cosworth.com/Default.aspx?id=1090269

then you could use this
http://www.cosworth.com/DisplayImage.ashx?id=63792&width=500

[inhumane]

^^^ cock n ballz!

[Skym]

Interesting.

R33 with Z32 ECU + Nistune board -

YouTube- R33 GTS NON TURBO PERFORMANCE NIS TUNE

See, it does work with R33. :P

[bobbo]

Let's get some info together, that we can sumarize and later add to our FAQ section, in regards to ECU Pro and Cons.

Something like this:

------------------------------------------
Power FC:
Pros: Cheap, Plug N' Play.
Cons: No Knock Maps, Fuel Cut Rev Limiter. Different ECU needed to do MAF or MAP.
------------------------------------------
AEM EMS:
Pros: Plug N' Play, same unit capable of MAF or MAP, Knock Maps.
Cons: Expensive etc.
------------------------------------------
AEM EMS V2:
Pros: Plug N' Play, Updated ROM size.
Cons: Tuner capable of LOCKING MAPs (no user editing)
------------------------------------------
Vipec:
Pros: Same unit can do MAF or MAP, Built-in MAP sensor etc.
Cons: Exclusive tuner licensing
------------------------------------------
HKS F-Con V Pro:
Pros: Used in many high HP cars, tried and true design.
Cons: Exclusive tuner licensing, Expensive.
------------------------------------------

What do you guys think ?

Please add info and other ECUs... and afterwards, I will make a fresh list with all info in the FAQ section as a read-only page for Newb reference once we agree on the info.


The fuel cut in the Power FC. Does that mean there is ONLY a fuel cut? Or does that mean it is only an ignition cut?
If it's just fuel cut is there a way around that? I'd really like to have ignition cut only.
Any input???

[inhumane]

Interesting.

R33 with Z32 ECU + Nistune board -

YouTube- R33 GTS NON TURBO PERFORMANCE NIS TUNE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyDWsDmYejA)

See, it does work with R33. :P

not an r33 ecu............

[DrMango]

The point was that there was no Nistune for R33. That is an R33 with a stock motor, with Nistune.

Kyle

[inhumane]

please note R33 oem ECU does not work with nistune, we should add that on the cons

i see wjat your saying but originally i did not say anything about modifying a z32 ecu with nistune in an r33

[inhumane]

i mean, i really dont know a whole lot about ECU's but i just knew my stock ecu cannot run nistune :D

so lets move on to standalones woohoo

[Oakville]

If it's just fuel cut is there a way around that? I'd really like to have ignition cut only.
Any input???

x2 :cool:

[DrMango]

I see what your saying inhumane. It is good that there is an option out there for the R33 guys though

Kyle

[mcfly]

The fuel cut in the Power FC. Does that mean there is ONLY a fuel cut? Or does that mean it is only an ignition cut?
If it's just fuel cut is there a way around that? I'd really like to have ignition cut only.
Any input???

the power FC is only ignition cut unless you get a PFC Pro. unfortunately the PFC Pro crashes when you try and configure the ignition cut apparently.

You can add a bee-r ignition cut rev limiter but you are safe with no rev limiter at all and paying attention.

[bobbo]

Why would you want fuel cut anyway? Won't the car just backfire as the unburnt fuel flashes off? Hard on the turbos maybe?
I know that there are fuel cut defencers out there so I was under the impression that having an ignition cut only would be beneficial. No worries of a lean condition hitting the r/l under boost.

[Allan74]

Either way, the PowerFC is considered by most to be an outdated box, even with the addition of the Datalogit and updated User Software etc.

People use them because they are Cheap and everyone has one......which is exactly why I bought one initially, but sold it soon thereafter.

Unfortunately there is a HUGE gap, pricewise, between the PowerFC and the next ECU up the chain (either Vipec or AEM EMS, up further would be a Haltech).

It's basically OEM/Tuned ($250 USD)----> Nistune ($500 USD) ---->PowerFC ($900 USD) ------>$1600++ USD ECUs (Vipec, AEM).

There needs to be a price gap filled by someone. A good/solid $1200-$1300 USD ECU.

[rb-racer]

Why would you want fuel cut anyway? Won't the car just backfire as the unburnt fuel flashes off? Hard on the turbos maybe?
I know that there are fuel cut defencers out there so I was under the impression that having an ignition cut only would be beneficial. No worries of a lean condition hitting the r/l under boost.

The banging and backfiring happens with ignition cut like the Bee-R. Fuel cut just leans the engine out silently and can destroy pistons.

Both are terrible on the crank oil drive and for that reason you require a soft cut rev limiter.

[DrMango]

I wish RB20 PFC was as cheap as the RB26 units because I would already have one if it was. I paid Adam $1000 back in 2006 along with other parts I prepaid for. He could not find one for less then $1400 at the time and he recommended against spending that much on one. I ended up using the money for other parts in the end. Damn rare JDM stuff

Kyle

[bobbo]

The banging and backfiring happens with ignition cut like the Bee-R. Fuel cut just leans the engine out silently and can destroy pistons.

Both are terrible on the crank oil drive and for that reason you require a soft cut rev limiter.

Yea that's what I'm saying. Let the fuel keep pumping in. I'd rather some extra fuel cooling the cylinder and the ignition cut prevent overreving.

Like I said before, I assume that is why people use fuel cut defencers.

I've got a PFC on the way and I'm really trying to find out more details about it. Not much detail on the internet.

[rb-racer]

lot's of info
http://paulr33.skylinesaustralia.com/

[Zacho]

While we are on topic of hard/soft cut...

My vipec has the option of combining the two, it has a initial soft cut(ignition) at a desired rpm. At a set value past the soft cut (manual says typically 150-200rpm) you can have the hard cut(fuel) join the party as well.

Can someone maybe shed some light if this is something I should, or might want to use?


Allan74 --> I do agree with you on the big gap that exists in the standalone ecu market for the RB. I was in the boat of "Do I spend 1100 on a pfc...or do I splooge 1700 for the vipec?". I was able to get a haltech priced out just about the same as a vipec (platinum 2000 w/accessories) .

[Skym]

Interesting.

DrMango, you can modify GTR PowerFC to work with RB20DET. It requires some pinout changes (joining 2x 02 sensor, 2x MAF wires toegether to recieve the same signal). And you load the RB20DET maps onto GTR Power FC via tuning software. Only problem I know of, is if you have to reset ECU, it defaults back to GTR maps.

[j-ran]

what exactly is a "soft cut" ??? I am guessing it retards ignition timing or something...

[DrMango]

Interesting.

DrMango, you can modify GTR PowerFC to work with RB20DET. It requires some pinout changes (joining 2x 02 sensor, 2x MAF wires toegether to recieve the same signal). And you load the RB20DET maps onto GTR Power FC via tuning software. Only problem I know of, is if you have to reset ECU, it defaults back to GTR maps.

I wish I heard that before. Is there a certain PFC I should look for then? Is it the D jetro?
Thanks again Skym.
Now would I be ahead of the game with an RB26 PFC over a Nistune to be worth the extra costs on a 300 whp RB20, or is that a waste of money?

Kyle

[Skym]

Interesting. Thought it was common knowledge.

It's the MAF version of PowerFC.

As far as I know MAP version of PowerFC (D-Jetro) needs a stock GTR IAT sensor, which could be wired in to a Field intercept harness.

Easier if you can find a Field intercept harness and do the pinout mods on that Field intercept harness. Makes it plug and play.

Field harness looks like this (not the GTR field harness in photo below) -

http://photofile.ru/photo/bakzz/2139812/large/37643618.jpg

Both ECU's will do the job.

GTR PowerFC has onboard boost control (need the optional Apexi boost control kit that has solenoid, etc). Stock RB20DET ECU with Nistune doesn't (buy a boost controller). And GTR PowerFC is 16 bit (quicker ECU) with 20x20 maps (helps when reving engine higher). Stock ECU is 16x16 maps and is 8 bit.

[Zacho]

For the cost of nistune vs. cost of a PFC for 300hp. Nistune would be the best option IMO.

[inhumane]

skym says interesting alot hehe :D

MAP is better than MAF IMO

[mcfly]

For the cost of nistune vs. cost of a PFC for 300hp. Nistune would be the best option IMO.

As much as i don't like nistune I have to agree :p

[Allan74]

what exactly is a "soft cut" ??? I am guessing it retards ignition timing or something...

Fuel cut is considered SOFT CUT REV LIMITER.

[mcfly]

Fuel cut is considered SOFT CUT REV LIMITER.

to an extent, rb's die because nissan still built a hard into the ecu.
I don't tune so i cant tell you how to set one up j-ran but i know aem forums had a guide before.

[Skym]

Interesting.

AEM soft cut rev limiter -

http://www.aempower.com/ViewTopic.aspx?TopicID=24&menu=false

According to tuning software, stock GTS Nissan ECU has 2 x rev limiters, hardcut first, then soft cut rev limiter, set at slightly higher rpm's. And a safety cut rev limiter (fuel cut). As far as I know all of them are fuelcut rev limiters.

I have always thought the revlimiters were soft cut first (fuelcut for short period), then hard cut (fuelcut for long period) if it overshoots the soft cut.

I read you can reprogram stock ECU to have a ignition cut, launch control, etc.

[DrMango]

Both ECU's will do the job.

GTR PowerFC has onboard boost control (need the optional Apexi boost control kit that has solenoid, etc). Stock RB20DET ECU with Nistune doesn't (buy a boost controller). And GTR PowerFC is 16 bit (quicker ECU) with 20x20 maps (helps when reving engine higher). Stock ECU is 16x16 maps and is 8 bit.

I don't rev my engine very high and I have an apexi AVC-R already so I think I'll stick to Nistune then. Thanks guys

Kyle

[RWDragoon]

I Just posted a bunch of Information on the R32 / R33 Haltech Platinum Pro ECU's HERE

[DrMango]

------------------------------------------
Power FC:
Pros: Cheap, Plug N' Play.
Cons: No Knock Maps, Fuel Cut Rev Limiter. Different ECU needed to do MAF or MAP.
------------------------------------------
AEM EMS:
Pros: Plug N' Play, same unit capable of MAF or MAP, Knock Maps.
Cons: Expensive etc.
------------------------------------------
AEM EMS V2:
Pros: Plug N' Play, Updated ROM size.
Cons: Tuner capable of LOCKING MAPs (no user editing)
------------------------------------------
Vipec:
Pros: Same unit can do MAF or MAP, Built-in MAP sensor etc. Boost control built in, Plug N' Play
Cons: Exclusive tuner licensing. No RB25 unit, Some re-pin needed for Plug N' Play
------------------------------------------
HKS F-Con V Pro:
Pros: Used in many high HP cars, tried and true design.
Cons: Exclusive tuner licensing, Expensive.
------------------------------------------
Nistune:
Pros: Price, Knock maps, realtime ECU tuning, works with OEM ECU, Info can be ported to display on portable PC screen, password capable, capable of using ford lightning MAF, maps tuned by Nissan
Cons: No MAP capability, limited to 16 load x 16 rpm fuel, ignition maps. Limited uses with high capacity fuel injectors. No R33 applications yet.
------------------------------------------
Cosworth:
Pros: Cosworth build, F1 technology
Cons: Cost, Not Plug N' Play
------------------------------------------

I know you are going to edit it to be all pretty Allan but I thought I would get a start on it. I'm sure you'll give it a polish :)

Kyle

[Skym]

Good info.

Nistune + stock R32 RB20DET ECU can run 824cc injectors, 700hp capable Ford Lightning MAF. Doubt RB20DET engine could produce up to 800hp on pump gas. Most hp I've heard about is around 653hp with RB24 (stroked RB20DET).

[DrMango]

Yeah I wouldn't take mine past 400 in my wildest dreams

Kyle

[Allan74]

Good Job Dr.Mango

This is exactly the point of this thread.....to get everyone involved.

What I don't like to see are links to existing Knowledgebases, because if I wanted to read all the info, I would have done so and not taken input from anyone else.

Points, facts, Experiences etc are what this thread is all about.

Not links to Aussie Skyline Paul's 300 page PFC Documentation.....

Good Job Guys. Nice to see everyone playing an active role in this discusion.

Allan

[bobbo]

Quite interesting the difference in attitudes on here vs. you know where.

With regards to the PFC can anyone tell me (aside from cons.) what quirks I need to watch out for with the PFC and boost solonoid?
Ideally I'd like to wait until the summer and have it tuned by someone who has experience with GTRs and PFCs while in Quebec/Ontario this summer. There is someone here, however, that has a half decent Mustang dyno and sniffer.
I just don't know if I can trust him.

Feel free to cut me off if I'm getting off topic.

Rob

[Allan74]

Nope, not off topic......

Are you going to run L-Jetro (MAF) or D-Jetro (MAP) setup ? which boost solenoid ?

[bobbo]

Its L-Jetro and it's the Apexi solonoid

[Allan74]

You have nothing to worry about. That's a pretty standard as well as Basic setup.

Tuning on the Hand Controller sucks though. Either buy the Datalogit or use a Tuner that has the Apexi software.

[Zacho]

For anyone looking for a N/A source for the datalogit...

http://www.frsport.com/index.php?target=products&mode=details&product_id=8528

[bobbo]

So I'm buying this PFC from this VERY helpful fella on another site. He's been great so far and with any online purchase I asked for pics... and this is what I got.
Will it make ANY difference in my '92 R32???

http://forums.gtrcanada.com/private.php?do=showpm&pmid=497653

Apparently it's been working fine in his until now but I just want to make sure for piece of mind.

Thanks guys!

Rob

[Skym]

Interesting.

Link doesn't work.

Hard to tell until you see it working perfectly in real life on his car before purchasing.

PowerFC is known (common problem) to cause out of the blue ignition type of problems when I think car was accelerating. But bad earths on ignition module or engine, or even wiring to fuelpump can be the cause. When this problem occurs with PowerFC, factory ECU works perfectly.

I avoided aftermarket ECU's, as they are sensitive to old / bad wiring problems. Factory ECU is usually not affected so much until wiring problems become worse and is designed to work with factory wiring, sensors without problems.

If going aftermarket ECU, it's worth it to pull all wiring, check it (or run new wires from ECU to sensors), then reinstall into car. Also some solder the earths to get a good connection, as some aftermarket ECU's are really sensitive about bad earths.

[bobbo]

Apparently the link doesn't work. The pic shows the sticker on the side of the PFC as it's for a "GTR33".
There are 2 part numbers on the Apexi website for 89-98 GTR RB26 engines.
So I have to assume there is no difference between the R32 and 33.
We all know what "assuming" does!

Obviously there can (and will) almost always be electical gremlins with this kind of tuning. I don't know a guy into this stuff that doesn't have a good Fluke meter.

My initial concern is if I plug in the PFC which has the R33 indication on the side will it and all other functions in the car work properly.

[mcfly]

The link doesn't work because we cannot view your own private messages.

the gtr33 pfc works on the 32 because there are no wiring differences on the 33 gtr vs 32 gtr

[rb-racer]

edit, wrong thread

[bobbo]

Perfect! Thanks guys!

[rb-racer]

Now with budget and function in mind. What ecu is best?

[Allan74]

Now with budget and function in mind. What ecu is best?

Nistune

[bobbo]

ok, so the engine management maybe taking a turn...
I haven't heard from the gentleman I was planning on buying a PFC from and it's given me time to consider spending more $$$$ before my wife gets home to stop me.
There's a AEM EMS available for a reasonable price and I'm thinking of spending the additional money on that or taking advantage of VEXs deal on the Halteck system.
I'd really like the input from some of you on any details that would sway me one way or the other.
FYI I'm not planning on building a monster. I'd really just like a 450ish hp car that I can take to the track and take on road trips without being in constant fear.
The biggest change will likely be N1 snails (or comparible), bump sticks and just improving effiecency from there. I'm a HUGE believer in the KISS method!
Thanks for any input!

Rob

[xcye]

AEM Series I. 1621U. I am currently tuning my R32 GTR with it using a MAP based set up.

Pros: It is very flexible and comprehensive. User basically can control every aspects of the engine
1. Engine Start control
2. Idling with A/C control
3. Fuel, Timing
4. both MAF and MAP set up
5. WB O2 Support
6. Knock control
7. rev limitting (2 step) lounch control
8. Boost with stock or aftermark soloid
9. Traction control
10. Nitrous, Methenal control
11. Custom user inputs, outputs.
12. custom sensor support etc.
13. Fairly decent start up calibration included. (So, a sort of Plug and Play)
14. Very friendly support personal if you call in for tech support.

Cons:
1. Only capable of reading one MAF input. (So, basically, GTR people have to go with SPEED Density or Throttle Base Tunning)
2. The tunning software (AEMPro V1.0) does not work well with VISTA and Windows 7
3. The tunning software could be more user friendly.
4. the 5V reference output voltage could be made more stable.

[bobbo]

Sorry but i'm pretty new to tuning... what does
"GTR people have to go with SPEED Density or Throttle Base Tunning)"
mean in more simple terms?

I guess these systems all have their drawbacks. Like any tool, it's a matter of learning how to work around them.

So I assume you're satisfied with it?

I appreciate your input.

[xcye]

Sorry but i'm pretty new to tuning... what does
"GTR people have to go with SPEED Density or Throttle Base Tunning)"
mean in more simple terms?

I guess these systems all have their drawbacks. Like any tool, it's a matter of learning how to work around them.

So I assume you're satisfied with it?

I appreciate your input.
Yes, I am very satisfied with AEM. But, if you plan to run a dual MAF (Mass Air Flow Meter) set up, then do not buy AEM. AEM series I only use one MAF input to determine engine load.

I am currently runing AEM with a SPEED Density Setup( Using MAP (Manifold Air Pressure) Sensor along with an AIT (Air Intake Temperature) sensor to measure Air Mass instead of a MAF sensor). The stock AIT sensor is not up to the task in this setting too, as it reacts too slow to temperature change. I used a bosch sensor for 911 turbo instead, which performs very well so far.

[Allan74]

Good info on the AEM.

It's good to know, that, even if I can't sell mine and get the Haltech, I will still have good results.

[mcfly]

I had a terrible experience with AEM. I'm not sure what happened but it involved the car running like crap on maf or map. IT always told me my timing was 40-60 degrees wrong. I think it was 60, one bolt hole on a 6 bolt damper.

For IAT sensor you should use something like gm part number 25036751. fast response open end sensor which is typically used for aftermarket applications.

[xcye]

Good info on the AEM.
It's good to know, that, even if I can't sell mine and get the Haltech, I will still have good results
Thanks!

If the tuner knows what he/she is doing, then the AEM unit is a pretty good unit overall.


I had a terrible experience with AEM. I'm not sure what happened but it involved the car running like crap on maf or map. IT always told me my timing was 40-60 degrees wrong. I think it was 60, one bolt hole on a 6 bolt damper.

That's odd. Did you measure the timing with the induction triger on the loop or an extended spark wire directly on spark # 1? If measured on the loop with a Crappy Tire timing light, does not matter which direction the triger is put on, the result would be 10 to 20 degrees more advanced. I found that out the hard way.

The AEM unit did not work very well with the stock CAM sensor wheel on my car as well, which caused some occasional random misfire. But, after switched to the 24 hole honda wheel provided by AEM, everything worked great.


For IAT sensor you should use something like gm part number 25036751. fast response open end sensor which is typically used for aftermarket applications.

The part number was saved!

[mcfly]

I was measuring timing correctly and verified it with two lights. Nothing added up.
I do still intend to run aem at this point but it will certainly be with the 24-1 or induction crank trigger.

[RABBIT]

im going to be going with a Nistune set up for the next season or two. Then when i want to go for my full HP goal (520 @ 17psi) im gonna switch over to the Haltech Platinum unit ive got kicking around. im really dreading the wiring job for it.
anyone try a Bosch unit?

[xcye]

I was measuring timing correctly and verified it with two lights. Nothing added up.
I do still intend to run aem at this point but it will certainly be with the 24-1 or induction crank trigger.

The problem I had was that the crappy tire timing light only gets triggered by the raising edge of the wire signal. The wire loop on our GTR is the charge wire for the cylinder 1 coilpack. So, I was always measuring the raising edge of the signal on that wire, which was always advanced by the dwelling time of the actual spark occurrence. Next time, I am going to buy a real timing light.

Yes, 24-1 wheel always. Since, the stock wheel actually worked very other ways except for the random misfire, which was really hard to diagnose.

[inhumane]

im going to be going with a Nistune set up for the next season or two. Then when i want to go for my full HP goal (520 @ 17psi) im gonna switch over to the Haltech Platinum unit ive got kicking around. im really dreading the wiring job for it.
anyone try a Bosch unit?

thats the oddest thing, you have a haltech kicking around....

[bobbo]

I had a terrible experience with AEM. I'm not sure what happened but it involved the car running like crap on maf or map. IT always told me my timing was 40-60 degrees wrong. I think it was 60, one bolt hole on a 6 bolt damper.

For IAT sensor you should use something like gm part number 25036751. fast response open end sensor which is typically used for aftermarket applications.


So if I'm going with the KISS method I'd be better off with the PFC or should I take a look at the Halteck?

[xcye]

ROM Tuning. I had used it on my R32 GTR before installed the AEM unit I mentioned above.

Pros:
1. Cheap. In my case, 0 dollars as I did everything myself and had anything I need to burn ROMs.

2. There are very good maps on the internet for common setups, especially for stock setting.

3. You can control anything about the engine, if you know where those bits are located on the map.

4. Stock ECU is very reliable and always works perfectly with stock sensors.

Cons:
1. Limited information about how to tune and where to locate certain bits on the map. (You might be able to use NISTUNE software to do editing)

2. You still need some data acquisition hardware and software to log engine parameters.

3. No realtime tracking and editing support. (Does NISTUNE provide those capabilities via additional hardware?)

4. No custom sensors, input, output and function support.

5. No close loop WB O2 support

6. The stock R32 unit is a 8bit unit, which is not very powerful comparing with today standard. ie. The AEM unit uses a 32bit processor.

[mcfly]

So if I'm going with the KISS method I'd be better off with the PFC or should I take a look at the Halteck?

I am not up to date with this "kiss" method.

what are the goals for your cars performance

[Zacho]

im going to be going with a Nistune set up for the next season or two. Then when i want to go for my full HP goal (520 @ 17psi) im gonna switch over to the Haltech Platinum unit ive got kicking around. im really dreading the wiring job for it.
anyone try a Bosch unit?


Haltech makes a PnP wiring kit do they not? depending what ecu you have. Just need the breakout harness to run MAP.

[RWDragoon]

Haltech makes a PnP wiring kit do they not? depending what ecu you have. Just need the breakout harness to run MAP.

This is correct we have a "Patch Harness" for Sport 2000 / E11V2 in stock that allows this.

The Haltech Platinum Pro R32/R33 allows for use of both AFM's, or you can use the on-board 22psi MAP sensor, or of coarse you can add any type of pressure sensor (3bar) as well.

Often we also use the Haltech / GM Air Temperature sensor as well they are cheap enough that we use them in almost every build ($28.50US including connector)

I am doing a Group buy until the end of this week (Jan 22, 2010) for those who are serious.

[Skym]

xcye, Nistune software uses what is called syncing, where one copy of maps, etc is on engine ECU and the other copy of maps, etc is on laptop. And changes made to maps, etc on laptop are automatically updated in realtime on engine ECU (you can hear engine change). Not until you do the burn, does the changes become permanent on the Nistune board inside engine ECU. If you turn engine off before burning, all changes to maps, etc on engine ECU are lost.

Nistune software can display fuel, ignition maps (main, knock maps) in Hex, if your used to old school chip tuning. Or display in the same way as any other tuning software (using numbers). Nistune software can work with emulators, so can tune, burn chips.

With Nistune software, there's datalogging for sensors, wideband. Also AFR trace window, where you can see actual A/F ratio from wideband for each cell and Nistune software can mark which cell knocks. Also I think Nistune software display's knock count (comes from onboard knock board on engine ECU) on that cell that knocks. It's fairly accurate on R32 GTR ECU, as it detects knock exactly at the same time as a expensive aftermarket electronic knock detection device.

Additional sensors can run through laptop, like wideband for autotune A/F ratio feature, etc. I read on AEM website that AEM wideband sensor can be use as a narrowband sensor that works with stock ECU.

I was thinking of running tablet PC with Nistune software on it for autotune A/F feature. It's similar to PowerFC hand controller, but has bigger colour screen and can display gauges (sensor voltages, etc) on screen, see whole fuel or ignition map on screen (not part of it like PowerFC hand controller), etc.

8 bit is enough for basic ignition, fuel and is faster than engine. If ECU had more features, it would need a faster processor to run all of the extra features at same time (onboard datalogging, additional sensor inputs for extra features, etc).

The resolution of maps (for higher reving drag engines) is one area where more expensive aftermarket ECU's like Motec ECU are better. And the ability to control bigger injectors, run more powerful aftermarket ignition systems, datalog suspension travel, datalog driveshaft vs engine speed (checks for slipping clutch, or helps when adjusting clutch). Also change to fly by wire to replace TPS, run aftermaket sensors to replace CAS, etc.

Motec is my dream ECU for a older Skyline. Alot of fast GTR's (including fastest GTR in the world), fast Porsches, fast V8 trackcars, etc run Motec ECU.

With choosing a ECU, you have to look at your application, requirements (including budget) and choose a ECU that matches.

[xcye]

Thanks for this good information!

It seems Nistune did do a lot of home work to make stock ECU tuning a lot easier and user friendly. :)


xcye, Nistune software uses what is called syncing, where one copy of maps, etc is on engine ECU and the other copy of maps, etc is on laptop. And changes made to maps, etc on laptop are automatically updated in realtime on engine ECU (you can hear engine change). Not until you do the burn, does the changes become permanent on the Nistune board inside engine ECU. If you turn engine off before burning, all changes to maps, etc on engine ECU are lost.

Nistune software can display fuel, ignition maps (main, knock maps) in Hex, if your used to old school chip tuning. Or display in the same way as any other tuning software (using numbers). Nistune software can work with emulators, so can tune, burn chips.

With Nistune software, there's datalogging for sensors, wideband. Also AFR trace window, where you can see actual A/F ratio from wideband for each cell and Nistune software can mark which cell knocks. Also I think Nistune software display's knock count (comes from onboard knock board on engine ECU) on that cell that knocks. It's fairly accurate on R32 GTR ECU, as it detects knock exactly at the same time as a expensive aftermarket electronic knock detection device.

Additional sensors can run through laptop, like wideband for autotune A/F ratio feature, etc. I read on AEM website that AEM wideband sensor can be use as a narrowband sensor that works with stock ECU.

I was thinking of running tablet PC with Nistune software on it for autotune A/F feature. It's similar to PowerFC hand controller, but has bigger colour screen and can display gauges (sensor voltages, etc) on screen, see whole fuel or ignition map on screen (not part of it like PowerFC hand controller), etc.

8 bit is enough for basic ignition, fuel and is faster than engine. If ECU had more features, it would need a faster processor to run all of the extra features at same time (onboard datalogging, additional sensor inputs for extra features, etc).

The resolution of maps (for higher reving drag engines) is one area where more expensive aftermarket ECU's like Motec ECU are better. And the ability to control bigger injectors, run more powerful aftermarket ignition systems, datalog suspension travel, datalog driveshaft vs engine speed (checks for slipping clutch, or helps when adjusting clutch). Also change to fly by wire to replace TPS, run aftermaket sensors to replace CAS, etc.

Motec is my dream ECU for a older Skyline. Alot of fast GTR's (including fastest GTR in the world), fast Porsches, fast V8 trackcars, etc run Motec ECU.

With choosing a ECU, you have to look at your application, requirements (including budget) and choose a ECU that matches.

[Skym]

As easy as it can be.

[bobbo]

I am not up to date with this "kiss" method.

what are the goals for your cars performance

K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple Stupid)
Keep everything as simple as possible to minimize the chance of complications and failure.

My goal is a simple, as close to stock looking as possible, setup producing a reliable 450ish hp.
So I can run it on the track or take it on a 1500km rd. trip.

What is the simplest, most straight forward system to work with that the average tuner can manage for my application.

[xcye]

1 more Cons for the series 1 AEM unit:
5. It has only 5 ignition drivers. So, you have to run waste spark configuration for the 6 cylinder R32, which creates extra loads on those coil packs. The series 2 AEM has 8 drivers, so, it does not have this problem.


AEM Series I. 1621U. I am currently tuning my R32 GTR with it using a MAP based set up.

Pros: It is very flexible and comprehensive. User basically can control every aspects of the engine
1. Engine Start control
2. Idling with A/C control
3. Fuel, Timing
4. both MAF and MAP set up
5. WB O2 Support
6. Knock control
7. rev limitting (2 step) lounch control
8. Boost with stock or aftermark soloid
9. Traction control
10. Nitrous, Methenal control
11. Custom user inputs, outputs.
12. custom sensor support etc.
13. Fairly decent start up calibration included. (So, a sort of Plug and Play)
14. Very friendly support personal if you call in for tech support.

Cons:
1. Only capable of reading one MAF input. (So, basically, GTR people have to go with SPEED Density or Throttle Base Tunning)
2. The tunning software (AEMPro V1.0) does not work well with VISTA and Windows 7
3. The tunning software could be more user friendly.
4. the 5V reference output voltage could be made more stable.

[RABBIT]

thats the oddest thing, you have a haltech kicking around....

yeah bought it off a friend. he wrecked his FC at Mosport and effectively left the "scene" so he offered it to me for decent price couldnt pass it up . but i cant really justify using it for the set up im currently running, let alone doing all the base maps and tune just don't have that kinda cash ATM.

[RABBIT]

This is correct we have a "Patch Harness" for Sport 2000 / E11V2 in stock that allows this.

The Haltech Platinum Pro R32/R33 allows for use of both AFM's, or you can use the on-board 22psi MAP sensor, or of coarse you can add any type of pressure sensor (3bar) as well.

Often we also use the Haltech / GM Air Temperature sensor as well they are cheap enough that we use them in almost every build ($28.50US including connector)

I am doing a Group buy until the end of this week (Jan 22, 2010) for those who are serious.

good to know thanks !

[inhumane]

yeah bought it off a friend. he wrecked his FC at Mosport and effectively left the "scene" so he offered it to me for decent price couldnt pass it up . but i cant really justify using it for the set up im currently running, let alone doing all the base maps and tune just don't have that kinda cash ATM.

oh haha i thought you just bought it for no reason..

[SVTong]

My head is spinning from reading this thread and trying to understand it. I've never tuned a car before (or really done anything to any of my previous cars aside from minor bolt-ons), but by the sound of it Nistune would be a good choice for a novice on a budget.

That being said, what is needed to to install the Nistune unit, and where can I go to get it done (near the Edmonton area)?

[inhumane]

nistune is a good unit for starters not wanting to go standalone yet, it all depends on what your build plans are but id like to keep on topic so we wont get into that in this section lol

[Zacho]

My head is spinning from reading this thread and trying to understand it. I've never tuned a car before (or really done anything to any of my previous cars aside from minor bolt-ons), but by the sound of it Nistune would be a good choice for a novice on a budget.

That being said, what is needed to to install the Nistune unit, and where can I go to get it done (near the Edmonton area)?


Going from a stock ecu to a standalone is a massive jump(at least was for me). I will find myself confused with some features/values etc occasionally. However, I am glad that I spent the money on an ECU with a dedicated forum and support that isn't far away and is always helpful over the phone.

The nistune unit is "socketed" in, and requires soldering. Ztune are authorized dealers and I wouldn't hesitate to contact them about an install. In edmonton we are quite limited to good shops in the city, let alone one that could install nistune. I'm a firm believer that Garage Works and Project Omega are the only two good shops left.

[Skym]

Interesting.

Most extra features on aftermarket ECU's are more motorsport orientated or maps are higher resolution for high hp, higher reving engines, datalogging for fine tuning, running extra sensors, etc. For most people that won't use those extra motorsport features or rev past stock revlimiters (or raise it slightly), it's $$ that can be spent else where on car. On Motec ECU you pay a fee to unlock the motorsport features. Mines, Nismo would be good examples of where OEM R32 or R34 ECU was good enough for motorsport use.

But with OEM ECU in terms of speed and some features, they have caught up to aftermarket ECU's, so no need to go aftermarket with new cars like EVO, R35GTR, etc.

Here's an example of what I'm talking about with 800hp+ GOTO R35 GTR racecar that still runs a stock ECU and stock engine with turbo, etc upgrades -

YouTube- COBB AccessPORT Powers GOTO:Racing GT-R at Redline Time Attack

Can do datalogging, etc with stock R35GTR ECU + Cobb AccessPORT for motorsport use, as shown in link above. I could have written about what I have seen in above link, but it's better to see it for yourself.

Nistune can do something similar, where you run Nistune software on a tablet PC, so can make your own MFD (Multi Function Display) that allows for changes to maps in realtime, run autotune A/F feature, datalog engine sensors, run extra sensors off tablet PC, etc.

I fitted Nistune on my car, as everything is already setup for factory engine, sensors and saves $$ + tuning time.

[j-ran]

skym, what widebands can nistune read off of? Any of them? or just specific models

And can you use a wideband to replace your 02 sensor?

[Skym]

2 ways.

As far as I know, AEM sell a wideband that can be used with stock ECU. I gather it converts wideband signal to narrowband signal that ECU can read, use -

http://www.aempower.com/ViewCategory.aspx?CategoryID=342

Also can run a wideband through a laptop with Nistune tuning software for autotune A/F ratio feature, display A/F ratio on each cell in AFR trace window.

[inhumane]

just a tid bit to add here

the ecu im getting for the time being is an R33 ecu with a modded mines rom chip

[M13]

NISTUNE has been one of the best investments for my HCR32.

Now I just have to figure a way to make the program display on my BB (4" touchscreen)
or if I have the funds, a mini comp with 7" screen in the double DIN.

[Devo]

Hey guys, great post this is what I've been waiting for!
I am going to be installing a minor turbo upgrade package that I'm purchasing off Supraclean and i was wondering whether or not a Nistune would be beneficial to the kit I'm installing. On the product sheet it says that after this turbo is installed it was capable to making power up to 186.2KW or roughly 250HP when converted. My question is will the Nistune be sufficient enough? and how much do those roughly cost if anyone knows?

[Allan74]

The Nistune is only limited by whatever MAF setup you are using, in terms of HP.

If I was doing a sub-500WHP build on MAFs, I would choose the Nistune in a heartbeat, as all I keep hearing are GOOD things about it....especially for the price.

[Skym]

Highest hp RB20DET I've heard about is 653hp at engine.

Biggest Injectors I've heard about with Nistune + RB20DET ECU, is Sard 824cc injectors, 280lph fuelpump, 700hp Ford Lightening MAF (blow through setup).

This is the car I'm talking about, that has those Sard 824cc injectors, 280lph fuelpump, 700hp Ford Lightening MAF (blow through setup, which is shown in videoclip) with Nistune + RB20DET ECU -

YouTube- Hires RB20 idle.wmv

There are single MAF's (upgrade for Ford Lightning) for over 800whp.

[DarKcyde]

Some good discussion of ECU's, but most of it is missing an important point:

Buy what you can get tuned. If you don't have a tuner for the ECU, or the tuner isn't very good w/ that particular ECU, its just a paper weight, or maybe even dangerous to your engine. Even if F1 cars run that ECU and it has the best features in the world, its no good to you without a tune.

When researched tuners in Edmonton, I found that all had some negative reviews. I went with Lightspeed (www.lightspeedinnovations.com) in Red Deer. Cam is really good, plus Wingnut works there, so you know skylines are in good hands. I got the ViPEC. Being able to spit 2 foot long fireballs out the back (ignition cut launch control, like a Bee-R) makes it all worth it.

[Allan74]

That's pretty similar to the argument I always make, about why I bought an AEM in the first place.

Not only is the Tuner that I use considered to be one of the best in the area, he is also a Certified/Trained AEM EMS Tuner (along with other ofcourse), so I don't have to pay him to learn how to tune my ECU - he is just able to do it.

[DrMango]

Skym, what plenum is that car running? Looks like a crazy car.

Nistune seems to be easy to find someone who can tune it for you. Atleast thats the case in AB

Kyle

[Skym]

R.I.P.S intake plenum. I found out why he shapes back of intake plenum (around 6th cylinder) that way, due to clearance with other components in engine bay.

[Skym]

DrMango, specs on that car in above videoclip is in SAU RB20DET dyno result thread (Post #258) -

http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/forums/Rb20-Turbo-Upgrade-Dyno-t103095.html&st=240&start=240#

On one website he says injectors are 800cc, then on another website 824cc. :confused:

270 duration Tomei cams explains the wicked idle.