Turbo Magazine RB26 build

[Terrh]

I just stumbled across this and there's a ton of great pictures and information here so I thought I'd share.


http://www.turbomagazine.com/tech/turp_0809_nissan_rb26dett_castrol_syntec_top_shop_ challenge/index.html



http://www.turbomagazine.com/tech/turp_0812_hks_rb26dett_top_shop_challenge/index.html

http://www.turbomagazine.com/features/turp_0810_nissan_rb26dett_castrol_syntec_challenge/index.html (this one is kinda junk)

[jimbojones]

Wanted to get some more info on that competition but the main link:
www.SyntecTopShopChallenge.com

...takes you to some garbage website.

Anyone got the link/know how that competition ended?

[rbs14]

AMS (4g63) won the competition ... i got the modified-mag issue with all the result !!!!

you can see the result in that link !!!
http://www.amsperformance.com/top_shop.php

[Allan74]

It was a pretty sad no-brainer......I have the Mags as well...lol

The 4G63 is KING in North America and it's pretty difficult to go head to head with guys like AMS, or even Buschur when it comes to building HP/L on a chosen platform.

Unless that RB26 was planning on breaking 1200HP, they shouldn't have even bothered and just sent the Trophy to AMS and saved everyone a whole lotta "Why are you running up the stairs when there is a killer in the house" HORROR movie angst.....lol

....'cause we all knew what the outcome would be before they even tried.

[jimbojones]

I did follow the link to AMS website and they only stated that they won and show the ratings as per Hp/L (also included the max HP numbers)

Figured that the RB26 (and especially the Chev motor) would not win that category but was curious to see the power-under-curve comparison for all motors. I think that was the heaviest-weighted scoring category (?); that would skew the motor ratings in a substantially different direction (e.g. did the Chevy motor win that category?).

If anyone has a link/scanned image of that part of the article, would be curious to see that section and to find out what the scoring was for ALL categories.

[Allan74]

I hate to say it sometimes, but I really wish I would have WAITED a couple months longer and NOT bought my GTR. Waited for what ? Canadian Bumper laws to be changed. 2 months was all I missed out on and I would be driving an EVO VIII instead of my BNR32....lol

Regardless of on paper, on the dyno, or at the track - It's hard to beat a 4G63.

When compared to an RB26, the 4G63 is:
- Easier to build big HP from.
- Cheaper to build big HP from.
- A motor that has it all. low end TQ and top end HP.
- More reliable (well, debatable) than the average RB26.
- In North America, the best known platform compared to any other JDM Motors.

I would gladly trade my Oil Pump problem for a Transfer case/Drivetrain problems as is common to big HP EVOs as their achilees heel.

Signed,
Self Loathing BNR32 owner .....lol

[Super_Dude]

- Easier to build big HP from.

How many pump gas 500+whp EVO's are there? There are a lot of rb26's that make 550+hp on pump. A gt35r EVO will only put down about 450-475atw on pump gas and full boost at 4500-5000rpm.

- Cheaper to build big HP from.

No. and what do you call big HP? the rb can make 600whp on a stock bottom end. If you need more than that you just stay away from the over-priced japanese stuff you can build a killer rb26 for much less than a 4G63.


- A motor that has it all. low end TQ and top end HP.

how so? it's a 2.0l-2.4l 4 cyl vs 2.6-3.0l 6 cyl.

4G63's are great at spooling turbos for 4 cylinders but a rb26 has the displacement and the 8000+rpm redline.

- More reliable (well, debatable) than the average RB26.

built rb26's can go seasons and seasons of racing without being rebuilt. Can't say the same for 4g63's

- In North America, the best known platform compared to any other JDM Motors.

Kind of a bold statement. I have no idea how you can make that assumption.

[Allan74]

First off, let's not get our panties in a twist.....

DSM had RULED North America for quite a while and it was only then when people STOPPED using terms like 'HotRodding' and began using the term 'Tuning'.

I am a Mitsubishi convert. This is my first Nissan. 'Nuff said.

As soon as you call something an RB26 Part, the price doubles for some strange reason....something I still have a difficult time getting used to , hence the SELF LOATHING....lol

The North American DSM/Mitsu/4G campaigns put everyone else to shame thanks to TIME INVESTED.

Buschur ? AMS ? Obviously the biggest 2, but there are others, including Magnus from Ontario who hold the World Record 1/4 Mile for a 4G63.

Please name 2 MAJOR RB26 campaigns in North America the size of the 4G63 examples I used above.

Allan

[Allan74]

Oh...and by the way. Tomei USA and Greddy USA and any other JDM/USA shops DO NOT COUNT for obvious reasons.

I am looking for North American HOMEGROWN Shops/Examples.

[Terrh]

on the street, I'd take an RB26 over a 4G63 anyday.

There's no replacement for displacement, and the RB just has more.

R32's handle better than evo's too.

I like evo's and all, and I've had half a dozen DSM's... but I'd take my R32 over a mitsubishi anyday.

Fast 4G63's are simply no fun to drive. 3000RPM powerbands that start at 5k aren't fun.

Plus I think I know which exhaust note I'd rather hear.


I thought that SCC's VQ35DE entry won the competition overall? Not sure if they won any of the categorys but I thought they had the most points in the end.

[j-ran]

ams won that competition with 1035 crank hp on 100 octane gas with the 4g63, but it doesn't make any power until like 6k rpm. I think the n/a motors made better power under the curve... i have the results in a mag at home, unfortunately im 900km away. Don't flame me for this side note, but i was really impressed with the single cam f22a bisi ezerioha of bisimoto made; didn't really win any categories, but impressive none the less.

[SuperHatch]

I'm not going to pick a camp on the DSM/Evo topic. FWIW, I'm a Nissan -> DSM/Evo -> Back to Nissan convert.

If Mitsu could build a drivetrain worth a crap I'd probably still be in that camp.

My 03 Evo VIII, 3 transmissions, 2 Transfer cases, and 2 clutches in 45k miles. Admittedly, one of the trans deaths was my fault, but the others were just rubbish. This was a 400WHP autox car FWIW.

Traded it on an 06 Evo IX. Left the car 100% stock and competed in A-Stock AutoX. Syncros gave up the ghost at 17k miles, Mitsu wouldn't warranty anything on the car even thought it was STOCK.

Left that camp and went back to Nissan. I'd rather deal with the age/lack of maintenance derived issues of a 20 year old nissan than the engineering related issues of a poorly designed brand new mitsu.

On a side note, I know my way around both cars. I've built a couple 600+WHP DSM's, and I have a customers Galant VR4 in the garage right now that should eclipse the 600WHP mark with ease. I also have an 86 NA Supra with a dead trans that I picked up for 200 bones. That car is getting a RWD 4G63 setup on the cheap, budget is 3k. We'll see what comes of it this coming summer after the RB Z is done. Too many projects, too little time.

[RWDragoon]

I might argue that the 2JZ-GTE is a contender with 4G63 and RB26's. More then a couple of people have ran 1000hp on stock bottom end, and oiling. (Not for long of coarse, but to do it even once is pretty impressive)

[rb-racer]

I would argue the 2jzgte as being the best bang for the buck engine considering what has been done with the stock bottom end. Then again I have seen some nasty pictures of broken stock bottom ends on 2j's as well.

And then you have this
YouTube- Gas Motorsport 3.2L 2JZ 2041HP Dyno Video

[j-ran]

the 2j is a great platform, but i believe the only reason it wasn't used in this competition is the 3 liter displacement... in a competition of hp/liter the rb26 chosen by turbo magazine in my opinion was a better option over the 2jz (keep in mind also that they were limited to 100 octane fuel). On an unrelated side note, i was told by a 1 eyed british man that the 1jz head flows better than the 2j. Source Cited

[Terrh]

if we're going into a "bang per buck" discussion I'd have to say that absolutely nothing beats gen I small block chevys.

And #2 is Gen III (LS1) chevy's.

Too much power available to them for basically no money.

600HP SBC's cost like, a grand.
Pistons for a GTR you want to reliably make 600hp cost a grand.

900HP rated full carbon triple disc clutches from a nascar team can be had on ebay for $250. etc. etc

If you're poor and wanna go fast they're impossible to beat.

BUT, I still like my RB anyhow.

[RWDragoon]

if we're going into a "bang per buck" discussion I'd have to say that absolutely nothing beats gen I small block chevys.

And #2 is Gen III (LS1) chevy's.

Too much power available to them for basically no money.

600HP SBC's cost like, a grand.
Pistons for a GTR you want to reliably make 600hp cost a grand.

900HP rated full carbon triple disc clutches from a nascar team can be had on ebay for $250. etc. etc

If you're poor and wanna go fast they're impossible to beat.

BUT, I still like my RB anyhow.


Domestics are just as expensive as imports. You can get complete short blocks cheaper for sure (realistically $2-3000+) But then you need to dish out another $2000+ for heads and valve train, push rods, rockers and other crap most imports dont always need right away. Then when you want more then 5-600hp though. Then you have issues like blocks failing, heads lifting, pistons cracking ect ect.

Other things like Injectors, turbos, computers, ignition systems, nitrous, water meth, boost controllers, wastegates all cost the same for import or domestic

I dont know about ebay clutches, but our Tilton triple carbon-carbon cost just under $8000, and at the time was the only clutch that would guarantee 1000ft/lb torque..... we tested this theory and its still holding today. The entire assembly including flywheel, pressure plate, all discs, and even all mounting bolts weighed 14lbs. This is THE clutch that Corvette teams run in the 24 hours of Le mans

[Terrh]

Domestics are just as expensive as imports. You can get complete short blocks cheaper for sure (realistically $2-3000+) But then you need to dish out another $2000+ for heads and valve train, push rods, rockers and other crap most imports dont always need right away. Then when you want more then 5-600hp though. Then you have issues like blocks failing, heads lifting, pistons cracking ect ect.

Other things like Injectors, turbos, computers, ignition systems, nitrous, water meth, boost controllers, wastegates all cost the same for import or domestic

I dont know about ebay clutches, but our Tilton triple carbon-carbon cost just under $8000, and at the time was the only clutch that would guarantee 1000ft/lb torque..... we tested this theory and its still holding today. The entire assembly including flywheel, pressure plate, all discs, and even all mounting bolts weighed 14lbs. This is THE clutch that Corvette teams run in the 24 hours of Le mans

Things like injectors, computers, turbos, nitrous, meth controllers are WAY cheaper for domestics, because you don't need ANY OF THEM. Just a $300 carb. That hardly buys a decent EBC for a turbo car.


You proved my point on the clutches.

$8000 for imports.

$250 for a domestic.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NASCAR-Tilton-OT-II-Triple-Disc-Clutch-Flywheel-SBC_W0QQitemZ310185949935QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotors _Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories?hash=item483885faef

New disc kits are $125 when those wear out. (new spec is .110 so they're going to last a long time still)



Aftermarket heads for a 350: ($650 FULLY ASSEMBLED)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/SBC-CHEVY-210CC-ALUMINUM-HEADS-64CC-FULLY-BUILT-PAIR_W0QQitemZ350266471737QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotor s_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories?hash=item518d823539

Fully forged rotating assembly (SCAT parts, good brand!) $795 including crank, rods, pistons, bearings, etc:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/SBC-CHEVY-SCAT-383-FORGED-ROTATING-ASSEMBLY-FT-30_W0QQitemZ330369666258QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotors_ Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories?hash=item4ceb910cd2


Gasket kit to put it all together ($40)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/SBC-Small-Block-Chevy-Gasket-Set-327-350-383-SBC_W0QQitemZ120504595708QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotors _Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories?hash=item1c0ea234fc

Then go on kijiji and find a used shortblock for free to $100.

and for under $2000 total, you've got a motor that will stand up to anything you can throw at it.
And this was totally the expensive way to go. You could just go buy a stock 350 shortblock in good shape for $200-$300, throw some $400 used heads on it and a $150 used cam, and do it for under a grand.

[mcfly]

Eight grand for a clutch? A little extreme isn't it? But I have to agree, making big power on any engine costs a lot.

[RWDragoon]

Things like injectors, computers, turbos, nitrous, meth controllers are WAY cheaper for domestics, because you don't need ANY OF THEM. Just a $300 carb. That hardly buys a decent EBC for a turbo car.


You proved my point on the clutches.

$8000 for imports.

$250 for a domestic.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NASCAR-Tilton-OT-II-Triple-Disc-Clutch-Flywheel-SBC_W0QQitemZ310185949935QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotors _Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories?hash=item483885faef

New disc kits are $125 when those wear out. (new spec is .110 so they're going to last a long time still)



Aftermarket heads for a 350: ($650 FULLY ASSEMBLED)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/SBC-CHEVY-210CC-ALUMINUM-HEADS-64CC-FULLY-BUILT-PAIR_W0QQitemZ350266471737QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotor s_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories?hash=item518d823539

Fully forged rotating assembly (SCAT parts, good brand!) $795 including crank, rods, pistons, bearings, etc:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/SBC-CHEVY-SCAT-383-FORGED-ROTATING-ASSEMBLY-FT-30_W0QQitemZ330369666258QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotors_ Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories?hash=item4ceb910cd2


Gasket kit to put it all together ($40)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/SBC-Small-Block-Chevy-Gasket-Set-327-350-383-SBC_W0QQitemZ120504595708QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotors _Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories?hash=item1c0ea234fc

Then go on kijiji and find a used shortblock for free to $100.

and for under $2000 total, you've got a motor that will stand up to anything you can throw at it.
And this was totally the expensive way to go. You could just go buy a stock 350 shortblock in good shape for $200-$300, throw some $400 used heads on it and a $150 used cam, and do it for under a grand.

I'm not trying to get into a major forum argument here, but I do this every day and the results arn't as easy as you describe. Lets say our equal goal was between 800-1000hp

My $8000 Tilton clutch is for a LSX engine NOT an import. I did purchase it when the exchange was bad, but even at a 1:1 its more then $6000. This is NOT the same clutch as your ebay clutch, ours is FULL carbon-carbon Brand new not used ebay. BUT for arguments sake say you did purchase that clutch off of ebay (its a good price!) You still would NEED a full Tilton hydraulic release bearing assembly that is transmission specific and fully billet aluminum (I have pictures if you want to see one) They sell new for $500-1000US, then you would have to either adapt your current clutch pedal (if its hydraulic) and create a pedal stop. Or swap some sort of hydraulic clutch assy into whatever car you use. or use a Tilton hydrualic clutch pedal setup ($1000-3000) Now you have a clutch that will handle 1000hp.

But what domestic manual transmission will handle 1000hp???? We installed a RPM fully built, cryo treated, REM micro-polished T56 6spd. This lasted 2 months on the street, with street tires (Toyo R888) $3000US. The transmission failed. We are now trying out the brand new RPM fully built, cryo treated, REM micro-polished T56 Magnum transmission I think this comes in the new 2010 Camaro SS's. ($4000) so far so good.

We have a Ford 9" differential with full Moser 31 spline axles, and center carrier assembly. This assembly comes with a warning on the box of 650hp max! Broken axle after broken axle

Now we upgraded again to a Moser 35 Spline setup with thru-bolt full housing and so far so good (another $2000-3000)

Now the Engine

GM 350 iron block with 4 bolt mains with 1 piece rear seal for $3-500

Scat is a decent name, thats true. So say or $800 you buy a rotating assembly. This would be stock displacment, but forged bottom end. You would still need ARP main and Head studs to handle any sort of big power. As well as good head gaskets

I actually have a set of These EXACT ebay heads on a stroker N/A 408Ford engine. The heads are made in China Junk. All measurements are at least 0.01" from a real aftermarket cylinder head manufacturers (to prevent copyright infringements). In our customers specific (customer supplied) case it changed the position of the rocker studs just enough that at 5000+rpm the rocker doesn't act in the middle of the valve, therefor acts on the valve spring retainer, therefor popping out the retainers, therefor breaking the valves off in the head.

After this was repaired we sent the heads to our port-polished and had the each port tuned for the same amount of flow. This engine was built at 13.8:1 compression ratio and at 3000ft altitude dyno'd 216hp at the wheels running perfect air fuel ratio's. These heads are not designed for any sort of boost needed to run 600hp let alone 800-1000hp.

For your fuel management you could buy a decent used N/A carb for $300, but a new N/A Carb would still cost you $600-700 for a brand name

If your using blow-thru for say a turbo your looking at $1000 minimum for a new setup.

So now you need power adders. Turbo/Supercharged setups require a fair amount money to run properly, and if your staying carburated you will have all the issues that carbs come with... and lets face it there are lots of issues. Thats why nothing has come in north america with a carb in a long time!

So that leaves Nitrous. Lets say somehow your N/A engine dyno'd at 400-500hp you would still need a 2-300 shot of nitroius to make 800hp. ($1000 + $50/bottle which you would get 2 1/4 mile runs out of)

All and all you can make BIG power with many different engines, systems, technologies available, but BIG power costs BIG money no matter how you look at it

Many Domestic parts are a fraction of the price of import parts, but the trick is the supporting parts needed that kill your budget!

[rbs14]

the 2j is a great platform, but i believe the only reason it wasn't used in this competition is the 3 liter displacement... in a competition of hp/liter the rb26 chosen by turbo magazine in my opinion was a better option over the 2jz (keep in mind also that they were limited to 100 octane fuel). On an unrelated side note, i was told by a 1 eyed british man that the 1jz head flows better than the 2j. Source Cited

that why alot of guys do the 1.5jz (2jz block / 1jz head)

[Terrh]

My point wasn't that you can't spend money building a domestic, it's that you don't have to.

I'm not flamewaring here either - this is good discussion! It can be hard to tell with text some times but don't take any of this as angry or offensive - that's not my intent! Take it as though i'm sitting infront of you over a drink, or whatever.

As with any build, supporting hardware always ruins the budget. I think my wallet would still rather I buy a $700 carb than a $700 set of injectors to go with a $200 fuel rail and $1500 EMS.

You can spend a fortune on anything. But with SBC's you can get away with spending less. With RB's you can't.

That $700 forged internals link I sent you wasn't stock displacement. 383 stroker kit complete with forged crank.

[DrMango]

I don't know crap about building a high horsepower anything. I don't know anything about domestics. I do know that when I tell my ford crazy friend about the price of my parts, like engine rebuild kits and ring kits etc. He laughs at the cost. I know that his parts for a 351 windsor or one of his super cobra jets are way less money. My ring kit for a 6 cyl was still considerably more than his high end ring kit for his V8. He knows what he's talking about and he's ordering from similar sources as I am. We both order the majority of our parts from online parts retailers, and both of us spend time finding the best deals we can.
He has one fully rebuild 428 SCJ on his motor stand right now that is almost complete that will run somewhere in the area of 600hp at the flywheel. He has surprisingly little amount of money in that motor. Its crazy how little money it cost to get good hp when a huge cam costs almost nothing dollar/hp

Kyle

[SuperHatch]

I don't know crap about building a high horsepower anything. I don't know anything about domestics. I do know that when I tell my ford crazy friend about the price of my parts, like engine rebuild kits and ring kits etc. He laughs at the cost. I know that his parts for a 351 windsor or one of his super cobra jets are way less money. My ring kit for a 6 cyl was still considerably more than his high end ring kit for his V8. He knows what he's talking about and he's ordering from similar sources as I am. We both order the majority of our parts from online parts retailers, and both of us spend time finding the best deals we can.
He has one fully rebuild 428 SCJ on his motor stand right now that is almost complete that will run somewhere in the area of 600hp at the flywheel. He has surprisingly little amount of money in that motor. Its crazy how little money it cost to get good hp when a huge cam costs almost nothing dollar/hp

Kyle

I have to agree with this statement.

On another note though, there are significant gives and takes as already mentioned in this thread.

For the most part, import guys don't worry much about a valvetrain upgrades beyond springs and retainers. The stock stuff works remakably well, yes there are some exceptions (SR rocker arms come to mind) but for reasonable revs (<8500) almost any stock import valtrain system will hold up with new springs and retainers. The same can't be said for the domestic stuff.

The same can be said for our oiling systems. Yes, the RB is an exception, but most import oil systems are far more sophisticated than the SBC/SBF setups of old.

I would also argue that most import drivetrains of the late 80's early 90's vintage are some of the most overbuilt stuff ever delivered in an OEM package. The same can't be said for domestic trans/rears/wheel bearings/tie rods/ etc. etc.




I guess the real takeaway is that there are gives and takes everywhere, it depends where you want to spend your money. On an import the engine build may cost a small fortune compared to a domestic motor, but the rest of the car can cost significantly less...

[Terrh]

I guess the real takeaway is that there are gives and takes everywhere, it depends where you want to spend your money. On an import the engine build may cost a small fortune compared to a domestic motor, but the rest of the car can cost significantly less...

That's what makes hybrids/engine swaps a wonderful thing.

[Skym]

Interesting thread.

R34 tubeframe import dragcar with RB30 -

http://www.spoolimports.com/content/NZR34DragCar.asp

Gives you an idea what rear end, etc they run. They built / fabricated the car themselves.

Jerry Bickel is one of the best in the USA at producing Import, Domestic chassis for drag racing -

http://www.jerrybickel.com/

[mcfly]

that's a waste of a chassis using only 6xx whp in a tube.

[Skym]

I think it used to be turbocharged.

I gather this is the company which built that tubeframe dragcar -

http://www.v8.co.nz/articles/workshop-race-fx-07

Known for producing a Ferrari F40 replica -

http://www.v8.co.nz/articles/workshop-race-fx-07/gallery/1

http://www.v8.co.nz/images/nzv8-07-race-fx-11.jpg

Looks like the owner is building a Bentley Lemans racecar for himself -

http://www.v8.co.nz/images/nzv8-07-race-fx-09.jpg

Dream workshop.

[TougeJunkie]

The methanol manifold they made for the R34 drag car is sick